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Post by Kirke on Jun 23, 2006 11:44:37 GMT -5
Doctrine. Let it out, folks, you know you've got a thorn in your side, steam in your kettle, something under your skin...well, let's hear it.
I hope to take a rare stance on this issue: All of us misunderstand each other. Every single one, unless somebody here is capable of perfectly understanding something! So my "side" in this discussion is to promote everybody understanding one another and not making false assumptions, and then false accusations. From the Ten Commandments to Christ, that's just wrong. And since I'm a moderator...-smiles-
Furthermore, I have renewed and very potentially heart-wrenching interest in these matters at this time. Doctrine has historically set father against son, brother against brother...and been a trial for those who are even closer than fathers, sons, brothers, sisters...so I watch with avid interest the growth of my friends into or out of the Truth-that-is-God.
FIRST, we start with a foundation: The Apostle's Creed. I would like to make sure we all swear by everything we hold dear that this is the truth and that we all believe it BEFORE we discuss anything else. I think it's fair, because it will force us to see that indeed, we have beliefs that agree (!!!), and then together we can seek out whether or not the rest of our beliefs agree with what we have sworn to uphold.
If anyone has a problem with the Creed, I strongly suggest that we take that discussion elsewhere, as we'd be debating things like the divinity of the Son of God, etc. etc.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic* church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.
Amen.
* This is catholic, not Catholic. This term, in the ancient sense, applies to the sons and daughters of God, not to the man-made Roman or Orthodox Catholic Churches.
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Jun 23, 2006 20:53:16 GMT -5
It begins, does it? To my knowledge, it had already begun. But I will refrain from becoming involved at this time. I will say only that I agree with what you have stated thus far.
I will be watching, Mr. Moderator, to make sure you do not make yourself easily misunderstood. Not a threat, just a fact.
And to give the reason for my refraining...I see myself as being too quick to come to your defense, when sometimes I know not what I defend. I protect myself as well as all others involved. I will cease refraining when I feel that I am capable.
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Post by Kirke on Jun 24, 2006 6:17:29 GMT -5
That wording doesn't sound much like you, Alameth...but I love you.
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Post by steel_lily on Jun 24, 2006 12:02:17 GMT -5
I agree, and this belief is what defines who I am. I will warn you to please not try to twist words, here. I look for no major debacle, no all-out war. I do, however, wish to turn you from such hollowness or at least seek to understand it. <smiles> It is good to put this in the public arena. If you think I am a tough debator, you should try to argue a point against her! <points to heyyou>
Begin on whatever point you see fit.
**May I note that this is very rare for me...I generally stay out of doctrine debates, as I hold to no one doctrine. They are all wrong on some point or another, and I search for truth above all. This, however, I view as a debate for truth and as such...debate!**
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Post by heyyou on Jun 24, 2006 14:54:44 GMT -5
First of all, I laugh at Steel Lily, she only thinks I'm hard to argue with because she argues with me in person. I've not debated much online, so I can't say it will work well. I don't actually expect that it will. But I will try. So, secondly, I agree. Entirely.
Shall we begin on previously debated topic?
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Jun 24, 2006 15:13:14 GMT -5
That wording doesn't sound much like you, Alameth... Because I was trying to talk from outside myself. But the words aren't mine when I do that....so I shall do so no longer. Anyway. Debate away, folks. I'll undoubtedly get in on it sometime.
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Post by Kirke on Jun 24, 2006 18:53:09 GMT -5
Alright. Well, so far, it seems most have followed me in not declaring doctrine.
It is hard to declare doctrine these days, as misconceptions abound. I understand this very well. I am a veteran of debates with people ranging from kindly to rabid. Say you are "Calvinist", and people start arguing that God did NOT create sin, and then argue with you when you tell them Calvin never believed that God DID create sin.
Declare yourself Arminian and people will tell you you believe similarly stupid offshoots of the original doctrine. (The doctrine that God created sin comes from hyperCalvinism.)
And then you have people who have no idea what the doctrine they claim to believe actually is. Arminians who deny that Jacobus Arminius said he wasn't at all sure that people could or couldn't lose their salvation, then claim they are not Nazarenes but Arminians, Calvinists who claim to believe God created sin, but that they are not hyper-Calvinists...
And so it's almost as if each of us would have to create a manifesto entitled: "What I believe about Scripture". Which is absurd, and we've already counteracted most of that by swearing to the Apostle's Creed.
As such, to avoid miscommunication, I will ask two questions that deal with the crux: According to your beliefs:
1. Did you save yourself?
and
2. Do you keep yourself saved?
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Post by steel_lily on Jun 25, 2006 0:45:06 GMT -5
To both, if I may launch myself into the fray, I answer 'no'. Most resoundingly, actually.
1. The question of saving myself seems to be something upon which I did not so clearly state my position. It is impossible, by definition of the word, to save onesself...to be saved from something is to be delivered from it by no means of your own. Furthermore, how can one save onesself from a punishment that supercedes any knowledge we might hold? Impossible. The closest thing we can equate it to is death, which is not nearly as unpleasant as most people make it out to be.
So on to what I actually mean. The saving work was done. Christ died for us, and thereby saved us from sin. The part of humanity is blame. Not glorification. Nothing in this system is to our credit, only things to our shame. We can choose to accept salvation and take the hand offered to us by God, or we can turn away. In turning away, we place blame and responsibility for our souls back upon ourselves, refusing the support God gives through salvation. Let me reiterate: It is not to our glorification that we are saved, but completely the doing of God! But, by the same token, he will not compel us to refuse his offer. When we refuse, it is under our own power and by our own fault. Thus the frailty of mankind.
2. Another rediculous statement. If one cannot save onesself, how does one expect to keep onesself saved? It is expressly written that we are not redeemed through good works, but through the blood of Jesus Christ. So do we somehow think, then, that the responsibility is returned to us once we have surrendered it? No. The logical human being would give it all to God anyway. Being perfect, he can control us in such a way that we could remain blameless...not that that ever works. We turn away and into sin and we have to keep crawling back, begging forgiveness...humanity. But no, we are completely incapable of living blameless lives and thus completely incapable of keeping ourselves saved. The wages of sin is death. We are continually brought to life through the forgiveness of God.
I think, for now, I shall be content to respond to the points made.
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Post by Kirke on Jun 25, 2006 13:51:23 GMT -5
"Christ died for us, and thereby saved us from sin."
So am I to understand that what Christ did, He did for all equally? And that what He did saved us from sin?
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Post by steel_lily on Jul 9, 2006 12:15:37 GMT -5
yes.
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Post by Kirke on Jul 9, 2006 13:52:39 GMT -5
Why does your god punish people for sins He has saved them from?
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Post by heyyou on Jul 9, 2006 18:36:15 GMT -5
*sighs and wearily smiles*
Alright, though I am slowly preparing a lengthy rant on all this, it will not be ready till more of my mind is regained. Until then, may I make a suggestion?
Please, be specific. This is a debate board, if we keep it short, as in one word to one paragraph explanations, there will be alot of confusion, commonly leading to poor arguements of twisted words and children biting. Watch your phrasing, keep everything in detail. Please. Reading the most previous posts it would seem people are trapping eachother by short posts that could be taken in so many different ways and twisted further. Make your meanings and messages clear, please, as it would seem we all have very strong, very different opinions. Thank you.
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Post by Kirke on Jul 9, 2006 19:46:18 GMT -5
Okay. But right now I'm more interesting in learning about other people's beliefs, not strutting my own (I strut...I'm not trying to say you all do... )...so I'm looking forward to your textual exposition of God. And Sam's response to my question.
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Post by st1_Emrys on Jul 10, 2006 9:29:22 GMT -5
Just to be sure, are you asking the question on the basis that God died for everyone equally? Therefore you would be saying that it follows that if God died for everyone equally then everyone would be pardoned? I'm just trying to clarify the context of the question. I'll let Sam (as it seems all refer to her now as such I'll follow the trend) answer although I have my own (and probably similar) opinion.
But then... I think you already know my views on this, although I have communicated them poorly it seems.
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Post by Kirke on Jul 10, 2006 10:16:58 GMT -5
I think the issue might stand like that, Nate, but I'm not sure that's Sammi's intended meaning.
I think I found a better way to ask my question. If your god's death saved all men (literal) from all their sins (literal), then what do they burn in hell for?
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Post by heyyou on Jul 10, 2006 13:24:58 GMT -5
Ok, for any who do not yet know of this recent debate, it basically comes to this:
Does God offer his hand of salvation to any who will take it, or only to those who he wants to save?
Alot of beliefs, such as predestination, have come up with this. If he chooses who he'll save, and the person themself has nothing to do with it, being that we are all sinners, who is to say he has not already decided who to save and who not to?
I've now read a collection of articles that are meant to prove the point that God choses. Using a little of that now, probably moe another time, here is part of my arguement:
"But this is how God showed his love: he sent his only begotten Son into the world, so that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Note that any who believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Any. Does any mean the ones he decided on? How does he decide anyway? Randomness! So, if you believe in predestination as well, then it comes down to this: God is a little boy, he plays with action figures, much in the same way that Sid, from Toy Story, does. His action figures are all of us, imperfect, because he is the only perfection. When we are born, he places on each of us a "good cape" or "bad cape" doesn't matter that we are plastic and he made us himself, he chooses for all of us, though all imperfect, which he will save and which he will condemn.(We are still sinners, are we not? But only some sinners go to hell? Only some are saved?) So, God, he plays everyday with his toys. At the end of the day, he drowns them in the bathtub, or cuts apart, (kills and condemns) the toys wearing bad capes. And he places on his shelf, polishes and admires (saves) the one he placed good capes on? But throughout the day, before he decides their fate, it doesn't matter whether or not the toy wears a good or bad cape, doesn't matter what he allows those toys to do, he has already chosen their fate for them. Nice. He repeats this everyday. Entirely randomly appointing capes. Great. So, if I wear a bad cape, it doesn't matter how I love, or accept, or what I do, I'm damned? Ooh, wait, I'm an action figure, I'm plastic. I don't and can't do anything of my own will. Lovely. Please make note though, our God is love and forgiveness.Upon giving us free will we are given the choice to turn from his intentions and do evil, or hold fast to his teachings and use them. A person can do endless amounts of harm, cause trouble, and be basically evil, but if they repent, if they are sincerely sorry, have learned, and turn back to him, take his hand, admit they are not right, that they need him, they can be forgiven If they are genuine in all of this, would still our loving God refuse this person because of past decisions? Would still our loving God deny him forgiveness, because he strayed for so long? I'll admit here, I don't know my bible well enough yet, but somewhere in there, there is a passage about God always lovingly forgiving any stray being to honestly return to him. Like the one where he sends his sheperd after the straying sheep. That sheep was cowardly and impudent, and kept running, but God's servant never gave up. And when the sheep was finally saved and returned to his flock, he learned then to not turn away. To not run. And did not then God's servant continue to love the sheep, even after all the wrong it has done, because it was sorrry, because it learned, did he not forgive the sheep? And would he not do the same for any sheep to stray and then return renewed?
(Random point-If God chooses and all, why does he chose to allow us to sin? Why does he allow all of us the choice to sin? Why not make us all perfect and save us all? Or even just some of us, everyone sins, do they not? Is it not of free will that we sin? So we have limited free will?)
Someone recently asked me, pertaining to this debate, if I was a fatalist, here goes: I am a fatalist, yes, but I think that our deaths are set. nothing else. Just our deaths. :::do you believe that God knows what we'll do inbetween now and then?::: *smiles* here, is harder to explain, I believe its like a dichotamus key. Everything is a choice, it all goes every which way, all by choices, but eventually, every path leads to a determined end. You ask why it mattered who set my death? Or anyone's at that? Have you ever watched a person die? Held their hand through it? They relax, no matter how one dies, there is a moment where you can see them falling to someone, into someones arms. It matters whose arms those are, or people wouldn't finally submit to it. Death is a beautiful thing. A beautiful spectra, but why should anyone follow him but to go to God? My view on life is that it was a gift. He gave us life, and free will, and offers everyone his salvation. Always, he is there, he is near, he can be called on and it is his perfect wisdom that designed our world, and each of us, and it is he who reigns. But he gave us the gift of breath and free will. And when he did, he chose when he would take that gift away. Because by the time the end comes, it is saving. The world has become a burden, and it is as much a gift for it to end, as to have had the gift at all. What we do between our birth and death is our choice, and our thanks to him. The difference we make in this world, what we learn, how we grow, and how we love him, and thus eachother, is his gratification. We are his children. So that question asks, basically, why it matters who the giver of this gift was? I hope that answered it. Breath is ours to use in his praise, be it through words or actions, everything we do is for him, whether good or bad. He is our Father, from the giving of the gift, to how we use it, to the taking away. Our salvation is decided by whether or not we take his hand, his offering, and live in love, learn, repent to him. He sets how we die, not whether or not at that moment (or the very first in the course of predestination) he chooses to save us or not. It is our descision to thank him and live in him throughout all of life, and our choice to turn to or from him, even in dying. Thats why it matters. It's all for, in and through his grace. Free will. Beautiful isn't it? That's part of what love is, at least, it is a great example, which he set for us, he choice to turn away or too our Father. The choice to be grateful. Because this way, when we go to him, we too, must be truly genuine.
Brain still not fully functioning...my apologies...hope this will do for now, more sooner than many of you'd like, I'm sure.
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Jul 10, 2006 13:37:46 GMT -5
I didn't read very far before I found a slip:
Any? The word "any" is not in that which you quoted.
And here:
You fail to answer your own question. Indeed, you seem to be avoiding it, as if you did not wish to answer it. For if God is omniscient (which He most certainly is), than He does indeed know what happens between our births and our deaths.
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Post by Kirke on Jul 10, 2006 13:42:19 GMT -5
"God is a little boy, he plays with action figures, much in the same way that Sid, from Toy Story, does. His action figures are all of us, imperfect, because he is the only perfection. When we are born, he places on each of us a "good cape" or "bad cape" doesn't matter that we are plastic and he made us himself, he chooses for all of us, though all imperfect, which he will save and which he will condemn." Perfection is holy, sinless. Imperfection is sinful, fallen short of the glory of God. So your analogy is good! I like it! We all start evil, born evil, going to hell, and "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Edit: And it seems God is raising a powerful defender of the Faith here. -bows- Alameth...Many things move and change, but we both know the Word of God is not one of them and no man is even capable of cheapening the truth. I am delighted in you. Thanks.
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Post by heyyou on Jul 10, 2006 16:41:11 GMT -5
My apologies for the mis-wording. I typed that section at 2 in the morning...
Whoever, then? Whoever? You take this word as selective. So in my saying "Whoever wants a cookie, come take it!" I would actually mean, which of you I want to have a cookie may take one, even if you come to get one anyway?
As for the second question, alrighty then, I will elaborate.
Do you know what a dichotamus key is? It is a system of choices. All those choices can lead far apart and in the end, all come down to one predestined thing. Fate being death. He is everywhere and everything, yes. Of course he knows what's going on here as it happens. Of course he knows what mutiple choices he put on each persons' dichotamus key. But, being that we have free will, by his grace, he knows not what decision it is we will make. So few people chose their own deaths, it is the one of two times in every being's life that they cannot determine themselves. Birth and death. Thus, he sets both for us. The only exception here is suicide. Which, if you refer to my earlier metaphor that life is our gift, that is given to us to do with as we please, until he takes it from us or gives us the greater gift by that point, salvation. But salvation we must accept, and a gift can be given back. Though such is ungrateful and weak, it part of free will he gave us. Other than suicide, does not he have entire control over our death? And in life, why does he make us do so many bad things, why make us sin, but to be a Sid who is thrilled to say how gracious he is to save the bad capes he had already planned on saving! How pointless an existance is that? Why even bother to send prophets, to give us purposes, if he has already decided who will carry them out and who won't, who he will save, and who he will condemn?! Surely he sends us to earth with a purpose, each of us, but just as surely, we can deny that purpose, and turn from him, thus sin. Free will. Or else pointlessness. Or else we are just that, shallow plastic toys, doomed! How very loving, that God is Sid! And, to make a point, in that movie, who was Sid's polar opposite? Andy. So Andy, who loved and took care of all his toys, even though some turned away from him, Andy who forgave any who returned and asked for it, in a sense, that's Satan?! His toys had a purpose, they served him, but they were imperfect thank you very much! And he offered to them all salvation, though surely some toys refused it. But his toys weren't just toys to him, they were real! We are real! So then, Satan is loving and God is loving but only by his picking and choosing? Ha! Sid = God, Andy = Satan? What a world we'd live in! "Perfection is holy, sinless. Imperfection is sinful, fallen short of the glory of God." So do you suggest then, that we are destined to be perfect? We are all imperfect beings, believe me, I am in total agreement. That is truth. But, if we are predestined, he has determined by now which of us will be made perfect? That's like pointing around a room and saying "You, you'll be perfect, you, you will never be." That's loving! We might as well already be either perfect or imperfect, that is so pointless. "So your analogy is good! I like it! We all start evil, born evil, going to hell, and "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."-" You like Sid being God and Andy being Satan? Ooo boy.... (Oh, and sorry, if I'm jumping around alot, but Alameth, rereading your second question again, I'd like to point something out. You've probably heard some stories from Sam concerning direct intervention. Yes, he does intervene sometimes, as the sheperd had to chase the stray sheep. But if he were to be in direct interference and control of all choices being made, at every moment, why would it matter at all that he intervened in those stories? Remember that contrast makes everything "the shadow proves the sunshine" Shadow vs. light is definition. How is anyone to see his intervention and be so helped by it, if it is that way all the time, without falter? Or is it suggested that God falters in his ways? Stumbling about so is human, is imperfect.) Thank you both for pointing flaws out, I am new to debating, especially this form, so please, teach. I like to learn. But in this case I'll learn method and from of debate, as well as some about the bible, learning of truth will happen for me by my defense. Thank you though.
Ah, and my apologies if I am absent in the near future, my computer seems dead set on dying within the next few days.
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Post by Kirke on Jul 10, 2006 16:50:46 GMT -5
So you deny God is perfect.
Because if He is, and the Bible is true....then God is perfect. Perfectly infinite. Perfectly unchanging. Perfectly ordering all things according to the purpose of His will. Perfectly and infinitely sovereign. Infinitely knowledgeable.
Your god is imperfectly knowledgeable, does not order all things according to the purpose of his will, is not perfectly sovereign, and has limits. This is not God, God being the entity the Bible is.
Instead it's just a god.
As is Vishnu.
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Jul 10, 2006 17:44:07 GMT -5
<shakes head in genuine sadness> Bethany, Bethany... You disagree with Scripture, lass. God knows all. In advance. Not "as it happens."
And there is NOTHING, let me repeat NOTHING[/i] that He does not know.
More than that I will not allow myself to say.
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Post by st1_Emrys on Jul 10, 2006 18:38:21 GMT -5
It is at this point that I wish I had saved our many conversations James.
I believe that James is correct in every statement he has made. However some inferences are made that I disagree with.
God is Omniscient. God is Omnipotent. God is Omnipresent. God hears all. God knows all. God sees all. God is sovereign, unlimited, ALL POWERFUL.
God created us. God knows us. God knows everything that will ever happen to us. God knows everything that will happen in us. Through his creation and omniscience God predestinated us. The Bible states that fact.
However our understanding is limited. In our sick, twisted, limited minds we have no capacity to even begin to understand God.
We do know about God what the Bible tells us. Now having already described in my own limited fashion what I know about God I will attempt to describe my beliefs on the question at hand.
The Bible tells us that God is impartial. He shows no favoritism. In fact it says God HATES favoritism (Romans 2, James 2). Therefore we can conclude that God does not arbitrarily choose Tommy, Dick, and Jane are going to heaven. However, the Bible does say that God chooses who he will. It says there are an elect who will receive salvation. This is where I think our limited human knowledge loses our ability to comprehend what happens. I cannot describe it, nor can I scripturally state this directly (ie. Paul did not say: "this is how it works..."). All who believe (accept to be true) in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. Whosoever Believeth. As Bethany has stated above we cannot limit these terms. At least in our own human understanding. So I HAVE to accept that God in his impartiality will receive all who believe. But is not this choice that we make by the grace of God alone? How in our total depravity could we come to accept Christ? How could we even do that which is unselfish?
This the other half-- the part I don't understand. This very thing is God's choosing. By his grace and power alone do I receive him. Only by his knowledge and his CHOOSING do I receive his grace. So it is in a sense both. I believe that God has chosen those who will be saved. He knows. He decides. (He is God after all). But to our meagre human existance this choosing cannot be seen. How are we supposed to be able to see and understand all that God does? We aren't. But we can see and believe what he says to be true, perfect, and uncontradictory. Otherwise he is not God.
I think that James probably thinks I'm crazy. Maybe I am. But from all my discussions and all my debates and all my study, this is what I have come to believe. And nothing short of direct biblical evidence of my incorrectness will shake me.
And James, please realize that this is my best attempt to do what you have suggested. Read the Bible and accept it as truth. Not search for evidence that I am right, but search for the knowledge of what is right. I hope I have done so.
And I would STILL like to hear Sam's perspective as she was the one to engage this discussion per se.
(O yes... for further reference... it would be nice if you all divided your paragraphs in the same way as I have mine. Hitting enter once does not cut it. Its just exhausting to read these posts that seem to have no divisions at all...)
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Post by Kirke on Jul 10, 2006 20:06:10 GMT -5
Nate, it's in the Bible. Anyone that believes on the Name of Christ will be saved. It's absolutely, incontrovertibly, and invulnerably true.
You do believe. You are saved. Do I know the workings of the Holy Spirit on the heart of man? No!
Do I know how Jesus walked on water? Of course not! All I know is that He did.
But Nate, the Bible tells us a tad more about salvation that you said you agree with, but as far as I can tell, didn't mention.
It tells us that no man will enter the kingdom of God without being born again, AS WELL as believing!
Two happenings, my friend. Some put man first, and say, believe and be born again. Others put God first (Alpha. Omega. No other gods before Him.) and say that He rebirths you and then you believe.
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Post by st1_Emrys on Jul 10, 2006 21:48:21 GMT -5
Ahhh.... I think I finally see now the source of our argument. Twas a misunderstanding on that very note. If you equate belief with rebirth as my propagandized mind does you will see the source of confusion.
I thought you were saying that it could be that some who believe may not be saved or some who do not believe may be saved (which is God's prerogative).
On your point I can agree (which can be seen through my statement "But is not this choice that we make by the grace of God alone? How in our total depravity could we come to accept Christ?"). Obviously in our human nature there is no possibility of us coming to be saved without out God's grace.
However, I think that this again is an area which we cannot completely understand. God is impartial. He is just. I don't know how those who are reborn would be/were chosen. I would suggest that prayer has something to do with it.
Discussing this again just boggles my mind. I'm just in awe of how much I cannot understand, nor will ever be able to understand about God.
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Post by steel_lily on Jul 10, 2006 22:58:06 GMT -5
Hold. All of you, Hold.
Emrys, thank you, first of all. I like your argument, and it is one of the most rational I have heard yet. Ces....<shakes head> it would be adviseable not to criticize without backup. Please...no wars. This is not between people, however it may appear.
I do not mean to stick words in anyone's mouth, but my charge the Fingerprint has asked for my aid in asserting her position. Seeing as how I hold to her stand very closely, I find no trouble in arguing her case as I would my own:
What she meant by "taking it as it comes", as it were, was that God does not interfere with every aspect of life. Of course he knows what is and was and will be. He transcends time, a thought and concept our piddling brains cannot comprehend. But the point is free will. Yes, he foresees our sins. Then why not prevent them? Why not prevent it all in the first place? He did not have to give Adam and Eve free will, did not have to even put limits on the tree or put it there in the first place. But he did. Why? Without the choice, worship was not true worship. Without the ability to stray, holding to the course means nothing. It is written that we were created in the image of God. This point, though debateable, I take to mean that we have the cabability to love. But love means nothing unless it is a choice.
God transcends time. Back to that point. Yes, he knows all that will happen. Not only does he know, but he is there. Now. Now for him is the tiny dot on the timeline that is now as well as every other dot in the line. That, to us humans, means that it would make sense for him to dictate every part of our lives, every move. But in our imperfection, we are unable to see all of his perfect design. I do not claim to truly know why, but he chooses not to interfere with the entirety of our lives. He is present, yes, but he does not force our hand. My only guess as to why is that so our love and our worship of him can be from our own hearts.
And now to speak for myself, giving the much-anticipated rebuttal (And as a side note, James, stop referring to Adonai as "my god"...it's disrespectful and proves you only the more childlike in your attempt to insult me)...
>>"Why does your god punish people for sins He has saved them from?"<<
You miss the point of salvation. It is offerred to all, but not all accept it. We are fools not to, but we can deny our salvation. In fact, we can deny the very existance of God. He allows us to, choosing to have followers that wish to follow. He offers to save us from the sins we continue to commit, like an out on a death penalty.
The criminal can take the out, but it isn't exactly an attractive option, sometimes. It can be more like military service than anything else. But it's also a beautiful relationship...something not everyone sees at once.
One would take the opportunity for life for multiple reasons...the opportunity itself is pleasing, someone you know takes that road, someone you trust is offerring it, or simply because it is a selfish alternative to death. Any way you take it, you take it. But there are some that just don't take it, for whatever reason. It's not that they have more power than the government. That is a laughable thought, as they have no power at all. No, they have no power...they are at the mercy of the government...they are offered an option, but it is up to them whether to live or to die.
As for the "two happenings" concept, you are trying to trap us with words again. The choices you offer give us blasphemy or agreement with your point. You state that to belive first is to put man first. This refutes your very claim anyway. You claim that man cannot believe until God forces him to do so, so why offer us this point? A trap. But belief is not to man's credit in any light. To believe is only to accept the overwhelming evidence that has been sitting in front of our very noses since before our time. Just a realization of God. This has to be done before we can be reborn, however. So saying that it is belief then rebirth is no protest to God's authority, but only a petty argument over order.
>>"Anyone that believes on the Name of Christ will be saved. It's absolutely, incontrovertibly, and invulnerably true."<<
Really?? Can I quote you on that? I just did.
I believe you just hit the nail on the head without realizing it, James. Anyone who believes in Christ shall be saved. Period. End of story. Not those who have somehow gained his favor, not those who wear the good capes, not those who are randomly selected and accepted. Anyone.
I rest my case, for now.
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Post by Kirke on Jul 10, 2006 23:36:16 GMT -5
Childish? Like taking I Am and comparing Him to Sid from Toy Story? I will not honor an idol over God, if that be childish, then may the Most High make me youngest of His servants.
I am glad you improved your grace, Sam. You should be proud of yourself for making a choice others who aren't as good as you can't (or won't).
However, I challenge you to find me one description of the will in the Bible that says it is free before the quickening and rebirth of the Holy Spirit.
One.
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Jul 11, 2006 8:39:01 GMT -5
This is my formal withdrawal.
I can't do this any more. I cannot watch this...participate in it. It has served no purpose other than alienating friends.
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
(1 Corinthians 1:10-17)
One: "I follow Calvin." Another: "I follow logic." Yet another: "I follow Scripture."
I echo Paul's question. Is Christ divided?
He is not, but we certainly appear to be. I can no longer be a party to this division. Carry on if you wish, but it will be without me.
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Post by st1_Emrys on Jul 11, 2006 9:13:41 GMT -5
I suppose at this point tis for the best. It seems my paltry attempt has failed (although some may have failed to see its purpose). I shall join Alameth in the ranks of the retired.
This is also my final post before I depart for Syracuse. I shan't be posting until I return Thursday.
Fare thee well wherever you fare.
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Post by steel_lily on Jul 11, 2006 9:17:08 GMT -5
<bows head in respect> You are better than I, my friend. Wiser than I. I see an argument like this and must hound after truth until either I be dead, my Lord returns, or the other side gives quarter. None of which seem very likely at this point in time.
The Sid comparison was not mine, friend. It was not I who painted this image of a God who, in his benevolant supremity, chooses to save some and condemn others in arbitrary grace. That, may I remind you, was you.
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" Romans 5: 1+2
"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5: 6-10
> Christ died for the ungodly. Those of us who happen to be sinners, a.k.a. all of us.
>God commends his love toward us. Not forces. Note the definition of commend:
commend (v.) 1. To represent as worthy, qualified, or desireable; recommend. 2 To express approval of; praise. 3. To commit to the care of another; entrust
In none of these definitions does it say "force", in none of these does it say "compels". To commend is simply to suggest, to represent something as desireable.
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:17
Need I say any more than that?
As for free will, the story of the Israelites as they were first coming upon Canaan will testify to that. God told them that the land was theirs, if only they would take it. But they sent spies and grew to dread the Canaanites and chose the path of fear. God's design was for them to enter Canaan and be bountiful. But they chose fear and thus had to be punished.
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Post by Kirke on Jul 11, 2006 9:57:09 GMT -5
I understand your withdrawing, Ces. I know you dislike this. But if you think when I say "as Paul said" that I mean I follow Paul, or any other man, you'd be incorrect, for did not Paul himself say in his Epistle to the Galatians that if he came preaching another Gospel differing from the one already preached, that he should be accursed and ignored?
The main point is that Scripture is not about God in the sense a biology textbook is about biology. The Word WAS God. If I say "As Paul said", I shorten the full phrase: "As Paul said perfectly, when indwelt and controlled by the Holy Spirit, such that when he said it, it was God."
And Sammi, I call it your analogy because in your IM conversation with me, you used it as if it were yours. And it is childish and immature to compare I Am to Sid from Toy Story.
I think it would be good for us to examine the context of your listed verses, since they are written as parts of letters, and not as a standalone amalgam.
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
From the same chapter you cited, Romans the Fifth.
So I agree with you, Sammi. This chapter was written by Paul to the Church of Rome, and when he says "we" he does indeed mean "myself and the Church."
It's only when you lift the verses out of the book that they can be construed falsely to mean the entirety of the human race.
Sammi, I've got books, literally, books worth of this kind of debate on my Xanga's history. We covered most of the New Testament and much of the Old, and each and every single time the verses used to support the notion that man's will is free of God fell shattered to the ground in the face of context.
Paul is saying "We were evil! We were like other men! We are all sinners, and yet God saved US anyway!" He is not saying God saved everybody, he is not saying that God saved all sinners, but that God saved US. The elect. The Church of Christ.
How do I know this? Well, the verse I listed said that the gift of grace belongs to MANY. So in some fashion, this whosoever, us, we, must not mean us as humans, but us as redeemed humans.
I differ from Nate and Ces. I will continue to offer Scriptural explanations in love, and I will worship God in doing so...because I'd like her to judge for herself whether or not what I speak is the Scriptural Truth.
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
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