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Post by st1_Emrys on Jul 19, 2006 11:03:57 GMT -5
The fine line between discussion/debate and argument.
Philippians 2:14-16
Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe as you hold out the word of lifeāin order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing. (NIV)
Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. (KJV)
Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. (NASB)
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Post by Kirke on Jul 19, 2006 11:52:37 GMT -5
Ah, well-quoted. I could duel verses with you by quoting Solomon, but your point is well seen.
I think Paul speaks of humility, does he not? Nate, if I claim anything that is prideful, then I need to un-claim it. If anything I do promotes anything other than the furthering of the truth (Even at the cost of conflict! Ecclesiastes speaks well to this, as well as Proverbs.), including the furthering of anger when love could have been furthered instead, or furthering pride when humility could have existed, etc. etc., then I need to undo and redo, for that wasn't even my intent.
So if you can find even a single instance of mine being hateful, promoting myself when I could have been promoting Christ, or promoting myself as better than someone else because God gave to me grace, then please, do bring it up, privately or publicly (whichever you believe God would have you do). If anyone else sees an instance where I am doing this, let me know. Either I'll explain the misunderstanding or I will revise and apologize.
If I've promoted conflict in the sense of presenting the truth with love, then I cannot say that I have done wrong. If I've promoted conflict by presenting the truth without love, then what I have presented is no longer truth. It's a false shadow, denying the imperatives of a most holy God.
However, if anyone presents the truth with love, and conflict arises, may I ask: Is it their fault? What did they do to cause or inspire conflict? Doesn't it arise from an external source, that is, a party offended by loving truth?
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Post by st1_Emrys on Jul 19, 2006 12:50:19 GMT -5
... Point being, if anyone states God "foresees", they didn't get that from any Bible I've read. They made it up... The "god" you worship allows people to make choices independent of him. The God Cecily, Nate, and I worship possesses perfect, infinite dominion (is sovereign) and has mercy on whom He will, and hardens whom He will... Perhaps if your god didn't act like an idol, I wouldn't even have the opportunity to compare him to one? Your god loves the way you think he ought to love; the Bible says that God hates. People. After forgiving them, your god eternally torments people he apparently claims to love. The verses you use for evidences are delivered to the Church; it is comfortable for you to believe they are to mankind as a whole, and it sounds nice to be able to tell everybody you meet that "God loves you", and think in your heart that it means that He loves them the same way he loves you.... And now to speak for myself, giving the much-anticipated rebuttal (And as a side note, James, stop referring to Adonai as "my god"...it's disrespectful and proves you only the more childlike in your attempt to insult me)... Childish? Like taking I Am and comparing Him to Sid from Toy Story? I will not honor an idol over God, if that be childish, then may the Most High make me youngest of His servants. However, I challenge you to find me one description of the will in the Bible that says it is free before the quickening and rebirth of the Holy Spirit. One. The Sid comparison was not mine, friend. It was not I who painted this image of a God who, in his benevolant supremity, chooses to save some and condemn others in arbitrary grace. That, may I remind you, was you. Does this remind you of anything? It sounds like squabbling, insulting, and generally not being very respectful. That is walking a very fine line. Whether or not it seems to you that you are "emotionally uninvolved", your words seem to say otherwise. Both of you.
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Post by Kirke on Jul 19, 2006 15:15:21 GMT -5
You're reading more into the comments than I have (on Steel Lily's), and reading more than I intended to be read (on mine), but I will certainly do my best to "tone down" anything I say of that regard in the future.
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Post by heyyou on Jul 25, 2006 17:28:06 GMT -5
Ok, arguing with direct passages, I'm using this from James' post to make my point on it as well:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Yes, by grace. Here we seem to have differing views as to what grace refers to. God's grace? He sent his son to die for us, so that we may receive forgiveness of sin through faith. It is by his grace that we have the choice of faith or not. But then you will suggest that faith is not a choice? Where does it say that God chooses for us who will have faith in him and who will not. If he promises salvation to any who believe, then he choses who believes. As for the "not of works" part, there is a difference between faith and religon. I believe you all know this quite well. There is a difference between knowing the bible, attending church each sunday, doing all physically involved work of faith, and actually believing. Just because you go to church, or read the bible (or have read the bible) doesn't mean you are a person of faith in him. That does not mean that you have truly asked forgiveness. So many people attend church and go up for communion, say the prayers, as recitation. They are not asking with their hearts anything of him. They are doing their "good deed, righteous acts" mundanely. Not truly.
By doing these things, working these ways, and especially then boasting that they are then a person of God and thus salvation, is wrong. Doing right things in society does not make a person christian. Doing right things for other people for human social reason entirely, is work for God, not in God. And it is not by this that a man is saved. But by faith, faith God's grace gave us reason to have the choice of, is how one is saved. By his sacrifice, his love and forgiveness, all this his grace. Not by the workings of religon not meant by a heart.
That, and Emrys, Ces, thank you for pointing out the fine line. It would be much appreciated if I were notified of that which James wishes to be notified of, should it happen.
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Post by Kirke on Jul 26, 2006 9:52:27 GMT -5
"He sent his son to die for us, so that we may receive forgiveness of sin through faith."
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"
Us?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:"
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"Where does it say that God chooses for us who will have faith in him and who will not."
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
"Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction."
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
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"As for the "not of works" part"
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
"Will, v.: To determine; to decide in the mind that something shall be done or foreborne; implying power to carry that purpose into effect. In this manner God wills whatever comes to pass. So in the style of princes; "we will that execution be done." -Webster's 1828 Dictionary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As for the "not of works" part, there is a difference between faith and religon. I believe you all know this quite well. There is a difference between knowing the bible, attending church each sunday, doing all physically involved work of faith, and actually believing. Just because you go to church, or read the bible (or have read the bible) doesn't mean you are a person of faith in him. That does not mean that you have truly asked forgiveness. So many people attend church and go up for communion, say the prayers, as recitation. They are not asking with their hearts anything of him. They are doing their "good deed, righteous acts" mundanely. Not truly.
By doing these things, working these ways, and especially then boasting that they are then a person of God and thus salvation, is wrong. Doing right things in society does not make a person christian. Doing right things for other people for human social reason entirely, is work for God, not in God. And it is not by this that a man is saved. But by faith, faith God's grace gave us reason to have the choice of, is how one is saved. By his sacrifice, his love and forgiveness, all this his grace. Not by the workings of religon not meant by a heart."
"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."
"Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;"
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
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