Power of Rings

[Alameth of the Iron Fist]

Reading the February 2005 issue of Smithsonian Magazine, I stumbled across this:

We don't need Wagner or Tolkein to tell us how powerful rings can be, though it must be said that those two make the point pretty convincingly.

Of course, the first ring that leaps to mind when mentioned in conjunction with Tolkien is the One Ring; but what of the others? Such as the Three, the Seven, and the Nine.

The Three, of course, Narya, Nenya, and Vilya; the Ring of Fire, the Ring of Water, and Ring of Air, were the Elven rings. Elrond was in possession of Vilya, Galadriel posessed Nenya, and Narya belonged to Gil-galad, then Cirdan, and finally Gandalf. The question on my mind regarding the Three is this: They have their respective powers, yes, but how are these powers manifested? (One example of Nenya's power, I think, would be the Mirror of Galadriel.)

My question regarding the Seven: What were their powers? Since they were given to the Dwarves, it makes sense to me that their powers would be over those things the Dwarves love: metals, jewels, stone, etc.

Regarding the Nine: They ensnared those to whom they were given, but what power did they offer? Command of the wills of men? Or something else?

[steel_lily]

The Nine, it is my theory, would grant a man leadership skills which he lacks. Courage for one, charisma for another, perhaps even "tactful" deception. And in those skills, they would all possess the ability to bend men to their will. Alas, with power (the thing that man most desires)....corruption inevitably follows. Ergo, the more the Nine Kings of men used their power, the more they began to use it like Sauron or Melkor would. So slowly, they began to fall under the overpowering will of Sauron.

The true and original purpose of the rings, one must remember, was to bring all the nations of races under Sauron's power.

[Alameth of the Iron Fist]

Except the Three. Sauron had no knowledge of them, as they had been forged in secret.

I brought this up over at the Barrow-Downs, and got some very nice feedback here.

[steel_lily]

It seems that Sapphire and I were of the same background. Having both read the Silmarillion, we both gave similar answers. Although hers was a direct quote and mine was an interpretation....I think it's kind've funny how close our answers about the Nine were.

[ElementFire]

Maybe the Seven were used to mine or make things.

[steel_lily]

duh???

[ElementFire]

Sorry.

[Kirke]

At the bottom of every Dwarven hoard there was a ring. Isnae that a near quote?

[Alameth of the Iron Fist]

Actually.... It might be. I never thought of that...

[Middle Earth Mouse]

I don't thind so, but then again I haven't read everything about the rings.

[st1_Emrys]

I believe that somewhere (unsure- possibly "of the rings of power and the third age") Tolkien specifically said in regard to the seven that they were used to/gave an enhanced ability to acquire wealth. However one point I believe has been overlooked is that imo NONE of the rings would have the same power. The results might be the same- for dwarves that would be wealth, but none of the rings would help gain it in exactly the same way. I believe a similar principle can be applied to the nine- men are attracted to power i believe it says somewhere in tolkiens books so the nine would provide various ways to gain power. However I disagree insofar as they enhance the leadership and characteristics (not physical) of the wearer. "They were once great kings of men". They were given the rings BECAUSE of their leadership, i don't think their leadership potential was a result of the rings... but thats just what I think. Due to lack of Tolkien i don't believe that question will ever be answered for sure. Thats one thing that appeals to me about Tolkien- ambiguity.

[Middle Earth Mouse]

I agree, Olorin. For these possibly mistaken reasons:

1. Maby it is just that they are raiths, but the Nazgul had incredible powers, not just fear(Battle of the Pelenor Feilds).
2. He was called the whitch king for a reason.

[Kirke]

The Witch King of Angmar, a great sorcerer and magician. A mighty man, descended from the great kings of Numenor, who could forsee the future and bend the wills of lesser men to their own. Aye, he had power before he obtained his ring.

[st1_Emrys]

Exactly. Also remember when Frodo asked Gandalf why he could not use the power of the one ring? Gandalf said that he COULD, but not well. In order for the power of the ring to be a threat it must have been wielded by one who was already strong of will and mind. A similar although not as significant idea would probably be applied to the nine.

[Kirke]

Actually Gandalf, if you read the book, said that he could use the ring quite well, it would simply turn him to evil because it's power can only be used for evil deeds. So his good deeds would be harder to perform because of temptation and the Ring had no power to aid truly good deeds.

[st1_Emrys]

yes I know. I was referring to Frodo using the ring, not Gandalf. And the ring did have the power to do the good deeds. Unfortunately in the doing they would corrupt the user to point that they would set themselves up in Sauron's place. But, for example when Frodo put on the ring on Orodruin if he had been someone as strong as Gandalf or Elrond then he would have successfully taken it for himself and become the dark lord. But he was not strong enough and so was overcome. Perhaps that is another reason that Frodo was chosen. In the event that he succombed to the ring he would not be powerful enough to set himself up as the dark lord, where others might have.

[Middle Earth Mouse]

And why next in line was Sam. Tried and true, Sam could stand up to the Ring's temptation.
Good o'l 'plain hobit sense'!

[Kirke]

Oh, it could do good deeds, could it? If you are going to INSINUATE that I am a liar, my fair sir, I suggest that A. you do it by presenting passages from the books and B. that you issue your challenges like a gentleman! We can start a battle thread in one of the spam forums and see who is the better man! Just so you know, I'm doing this all in fun....not angrily.....

[st1_Emrys]

Alright, I was incorrect in one area. The person Frodo asked was Galadriel.

" 'I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, 'a thing which I meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of all that wear them?"
'You have not tried,' she said. 'Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you posessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor?"
that is the passage I was referring to earlier. due to a peaceful resolution w/ AbtisIgnominia I won't bother finding the other quote. But if you're wondering thats the one I referenced earlier.

[Middle Earth Mouse]

But the part where we find out that the Ring could do good is right before/after that.

[st1_Emrys]

is it? I thought it was at another area. I have to do some more looking around but I think I know the general area in which it is.

[Kirke]

Peaceful resolution? I am confused as to when we were ever at serious odds (something about me folks, I don't take a lot of things seriously, particularly not fiction ). Anyway, I never said the ring didn't give power according to stature, although Olorin brought up a good point that you might be able to attempt a good deed with the Ring, but as you performed it the Ring would twist you into making the deed evil, even so subtley that you might not be able to tell at first.

[Middle Earth Mouse]

It's there or in The Council of Elrond, Olorin.

[st1_Emrys]

I think its in the Council of Elrond. I was as confused as you AbtisIgnominia... but whatever. I don't wanna take the time to type out the quote from the council of Elrond...I'm too lazy, plus that wastes my online time... Peaceful Resolution is a fun phraze whatever the case.

[Middle Earth Mouse]

O, ya, it's there too.

[Kirke]

I guess my question is, aye, it may be fun to debate this...but what of Scripture? I've been going at it hammer and tongs with Alameth's father and it just seems to me to mean so much more to BOTH of us learning more about each other, God, His Word, and the absolute truths therein, whereas fiction is.....well.......fictional. God's word is everlasting and real!

[st1_Emrys]

very true, but then why not... as long as you can do both- for instance our discussion last night... that was an encouragement to me and unless i was mistaken it was an encouragement to you as well. We both grew through sharing our opinions on the best way to handle a situation. But unless its like seriously messing up your priorities (ie. this debate matters more than scripture to you) then I think its harmless to debate about it.

[Kirke]

Aye, but it takes up time. Time that might be spent on Scriptural debates!!!

[Middle Earth Mouse]

I've been going at it hammer and tongs with Alameth's father and it just seems to me to mean so much more to BOTH of us learning more about each other, God, His Word, and the absolute truths therein...

You're darn right you were, and still are from what I here. You realy had him goin there. How did that conversation start any way? Did you just say "I want to talk to you father" or did he say "Go help your mother with lunch"?

[Kirke]

Oh I've been wanting to ask him some questions about that for some time. It's no big deal, just a matter of doctrine...really, it's not that huge of a deal!