Attending church

[st1_Emrys]

Today I was having a conversation online with our very own "superman." We were discussing the importance of attending church. He says that he does not attend his church but his father leads family worship every sunday. I think that this is biblically incorrect- Hebrews 10:25 says "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching."While he is meeting with his family I think that the lack of fellowship with other christians may hamper his spiritual growth. While there is hypocrisy and there is corruption in the church- there is corruption in every large institution- that does not mean we should not take part. In fact in not taking part you detract from those faithful few in the church. I think that I would be incapable of completing this conversation of IM- so superman can you please explain your logic to me (as well- others give input please).

[Middle Earth Mouse]

Now, I know that I am not a biblical scholar, (I can't even spell right!) but I believe that Paul is saying that we should not be monks in the wilderness (unless you feel called to be a monk far from civilization. . .) but to meet with other Christians in our day to day lives and talk about issues in our faith walk. Church is not the only place to do that, however,for those of us who do go to church, it is a convenient time to do it.

[Alameth of the Iron Fist]

I am astounded. For once my brother got something right! Maybe he's finally growing up...

st1, what mouse has said is true. (Except for the fact that he thinks Paul wrote Hebrews...) We shouldn't exclude ourselves from Christian contact. Even if one doesn't become a hermit, such exclusion is possible and occurs too often, even in churchgoers. If we do not have contact (real contact! Not 'go here, do this, leave as soon the sermon is done') with others of our faith, we deprive ourselves of a necessity: encouragement. Paul states in Romans 1:11-12, "For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; that is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me." (Or in NIV for quizzers: "I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong—that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith.") This is what 'church'* is for. Encouragement, edification, teaching. Such an end can be accomplished as well one-on-one as in a group—probably better. As for "assmbling together", any gathering of Christians can accomplish this; not only 'church'.

*Note the quotation marks. I find that too much ceremonial/ritualistic activity goes on at regular Sunday morning gatherings. Mi padre calls this 'playing church' and despises it. Some, undoubtedly, find comfort in doing things the same way over and over; however, 'church' should not be mere ritualistic, "We always do it this way" stuff. That is how Catholicism began! We should meet together for encouragement, edification, exhortion. Not because we have to; not doing things always the same way. Where have the radical Christians gone? Are we all soggy, zombie-like creatures, saying and doing things because we're 'supposed to'? I, for one, refuse to become something as repulsive as that. I know several of you (steel, Superman, st1, to name a few) will agree with me on this. My apologies, this footnote has become a rant.

[steel_lily]

Pardon me, but I believe I must side with st1 on this. Not exactly with the argument, however, for mouse had that interpretation fairly accurate. Church, even 'playing church' (as much as I despise it) is a very important part of our spiritual lives.
Alameth, before you die of shock and horror, let me explain. I do promote 'radical Christianity' as you put it. I believe we should all act and act without concern for popular opinion or self-preservation. However, I see a very good point in much of Catholocism. Ritual is not the essence of worship, but rather the catalyst. I find some rituals deeply and profoundly meaningful, and quite necessary from time to time. The point, however, is that the ritual is not meant to be the entirety of the service. The ritual focuses you, brings you in, and gets your mind and heart set to do what needs doing. Also, there is a simultaneous comfort and awe that laces most rituals/rites. God, I feel, is too cushy a figure in today's society. People tend to forget that he also formed the universe from nothing. The 'awe' is a very important part of 'awesome'.
One must also remember that church is not just for you. Church is a chance to support Christians that you don't see every day. Christians that aren't in your family. See, Christianity is a group effort. Believe it or not, you need their support. At one point or another you will, anyway. And if you're a typically solid Christian, church is the gathering place of the weak. Be there for them.
My final point is something that is difficult to argue for, but is tangible all the same. Churches are consecrated ground. There are times, when all is quiet and the sancuary is deserted, that you can feel the holiness. You can be overwhelmed by it. The power and sanctity of God is so much more tangible on church grounds. But that's just a weird human thing.

[Alameth of the Iron Fist]

I see where you're coming from....and I admit, I was a bit over-the-top. Comes of not thinking before I speak...

[st1_Emrys]

I don't know about all you but I think for the most part if you look long of enough you will find the right church. My church is amazing the people are real- the worship is for real. People let go of themselves and are seriously changed. We don't look down on those who are not fully "christianized" but rather we accept them and try to help them grow. Our church started 4 years ago with 30 people and last week we had almost 400. PEOPLE LONG FOR SOMETHING REAL. If those who ARE real hide back in their own christianized hole they CANNOT reach out to them. So if not necessarily for yourself (who WILL benefit from a church, especially one that is real) it is your responsibility as a christian to reach out.

EDIT: If you are in fact inviting others to your family services then i think it would be ok. Otherwise you need to get out.

[steel_lily]

Even so....

But yes. I wish we had a church like that in our area. Instead, we are feeling called to shape our own church for the better. Along with the help of our new pastor, we have been making slow but gradual process. To be honest, Cleric, I'm not a big fan of my church. Nor am I a big fan of going to my church. And it would be very easy for me and my family to stay home and do a bible-study type thing every Sunday. But I feel, and I'm sure that my parents feel the same, that this would be neglecting a calling and a duty. Ardency is wonderful....I long to see it in the faces of those who worship. I long to be able to feel it during our worship services. But our church's love for God is not yet an ardent one, and must therefore be slowly shown God's awesomeness (is this a word?)

[Alameth of the Iron Fist]

Aye, my clone, awesomeness is a word.

And as for Superman's familia's going to church...they kind of can't. Honestly. There is an inability.

[Kirke]

Well, as you say, Nate, that's what you think.

Are you human?

Does what you say imply your opinion or raw Scriptural principle?

Based on my answers to the above questions, I utterly reject your argument. You say "I think" one to many times.

[st1_Emrys]

Matthew 28:19-20
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Romans 10:14-15
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Romans 12:5
5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

1 Corinthians 12
Spiritual Gifts
1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.


Psalm 68:18
18 When you ascended on high,
you led captives in your train;
you received gifts from men,
even from the rebellious—
that you, O LORD God, might dwell there.

If there is an inability I understand, but you should recognize that you have a responsibility. By the way, I just want you to know that I'm not trying to be argumentative, i'm just honestly concerned.

[Alameth of the Iron Fist]

Hoo boy.... Come on, guys, be nice. Make peace. Please. For my sanity.

[Kirke]

Well, my friend, you are good at quoting Scripture. But quoting Scripture applicable to the arguement would be even better!

[st1_Emrys]

I'm done now- but you asked for raw scripture not the application.

[Kirke]

PWNED!

[steel_lily]

Superman.....<clucks tongue> He always was more brawn than brain. A decent argument...a persuasive argument is not purely factual. Humans are beings of passion. You can present tomes, annals, entire libraries of facts. It really doesn't matter when not interpreted or applied to form and explain human passions. It just doesn't work. Both of you are being pig-headed.

St1, he doesn't wish to listen. Superman, try to listen. Put your big manly ego in a jar on a shelf somewhere, shut up, and just take into mind what we're saying. We're not trying to hurt you.

[Kirke]

No manly ego about it, sister steel! I simply have no need or desire to worship God in a specified building. I can do it adequately, more than adequately, right here. If/when God convicts me otherwise, I'll let you know!

[st1_Emrys]

Perspectives

It feels like your life's crashing down all around you
Let me ask if it's really so bad
Look at the world in it's suffering
Can you honestly tell me that know one else could understand
All the hurting inside

Why can't you see that freedom is sometimes simply another perspective away
Who could you be if your lens was changed for a moment,
Would you still be the same

A young child looks through a great stained glass window
Watching the people go by
Everyone seems to be wearing a red coat
His mother sees jackets in white
Now he can't understand why does she see it this way

Why can't you see that freedom is sometimes simply another perspective away
Who could you be if your lens was changed for a moment,
Would you still be the same

Yesterday, you really couldn't see
By changing your angle a new world would be
Revealed to your once blinded eyes by moving a few degrees

Why can't you see that freedom is sometimes simply another perspective away
Who could you be if your lens was changed for a moment,
Would you still be the same

~Kutless

[steel_lily]

I'm not saying that your worship must be confined to a specified building, though it currently seems limited to your home. God, more often than we would like, calls us out of our comfort zones. I don't know about everyone else, but it seems a little selfish and a little cowardly to be hiding in your comfortable house having a parent-driven service. You're a good man, Superman. Ever consider affecting others?

[Kirke]

Hah, me, a good man? -sighs- I'm anything but that. And yes I have.

I worked at Lowe's for awhile, and I'll be working there again next month, and people have already commented on a few things that show admiration on my behavior/work ethic. That's about as close I come to affecting others in real life that I know of.

And I personally am very selfish. I spend most of my freetime doing things with/for Cecily and on martial arts. I do not take time out of my day to do much for others, except if my great grandfather or grandmother need something done, then I drop all other activities, get a ride to their place, and get it done. Although, recently, I've been readying the bathroom floor to get retiled for my dad...I do some chores around here that require some skill/experience, which nobody in my family has as much of as I do...so maybe I'm not utterly selfish.

But church I simply find detrimental to spiritual growth.

[steel_lily]

Think again.

[Kirke]

I've spent time thinking about this, as you suggested, lily, and I come to one conclusion: the catholic (not Catholic) church is held together invisibly, by God alone, and no longer by men. Unity, as much as Paul commands it, is denied. Humility has been lost, and pride has taken a hold in the hearts of most churches today (even the modern doctrines of most churches reflect pride...much less the lives and hearts of the members...).

The Bible says God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble...and better a simple meal where there is peace than a banquet where hatred abounds. If I found a church with even ten men that were slow to anger, quick to love, and humble, believing in their deepest core truthful and God-honoring doctrines of the Bible, I would strongly consider joining. Out of every church I have ever attended, I cannot recall ever meeting that number of men who had the basic things Paul commands: Humility and a life lived according to humble doctrine.

Anyone who would deny that salvation is God's and God's alone with any words is not truly humble, but glorifying man...and God will resist them. So again, I will not join a church nor offer my services thereto. I am convicted otherwise by the law, without which we have no knowledge of evil.

[Middle Earth Mouse]

Hah, me, a good man? -sighs- I'm anything but that. And yes I have.

I worked at Lowe's for awhile, and I'll be working there again next month, and people have already commented on a few things that show admiration on my behavior/work ethic. That's about as close I come to affecting others in real life that I know of.

And I personally am very selfish. I spend most of my freetime doing things with/for Cecily and on martial arts. I do not take time out of my day to do much for others, except if my great grandfather or grandmother need something done, then I drop all other activities, get a ride to their place, and get it done. Although, recently, I've been readying the bathroom floor to get retiled for my dad...I do some chores around here that require some skill/experience, which nobody in my family has as much of as I do...so maybe I'm not utterly selfish.

But church I simply find detrimental to spiritual growth.

Well, as my dad says to me, it doesn't matter if you don't learn any thing, or think you are growing spiritually, other people are, and might more if you were there. Also, you beat my dad in a debate(mostly because you type"way to fast) (some of you know about this), how much do you think you can grow at a church where the only difference between you and the pastor is that he went to seminary and has a little more life experience.

I've spent time thinking about this, as you suggested, lily, and I come to one conclusion: the catholic (not Catholic) church is held together invisibly, by God alone, and no longer by men. Unity, as much as Paul commands it, is denied. Humility has been lost, and pride has taken a hold in the hearts of most churches today (even the modern doctrines of most churches reflect pride...much less the lives and hearts of the members...).

The Bible says God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble...and better a simple meal where there is peace than a banquet where hatred abounds. If I found a church with even ten men that were slow to anger, quick to love, and humble, believing in their deepest core truthful and God-honoring doctrines of the Bible, I would strongly consider joining. Out of every church I have ever attended, I cannot recall ever meeting that number of men who had the basic things Paul commands: Humility and a life lived according to humble doctrine.

Anyone who would deny that salvation is God's and God's alone with any words is not truly humble, but glorifying man...and God will resist them. So again, I will not join a church nor offer my services thereto. I am convicted otherwise by the law, without which we have no knowledge of evil.

I believe I can name 10 in my church, sell, maby 5, but it is a realatively small church. ONe more thing, they are only human. We can strive for the near perfection that paule was talking about, but it will take a while to reach that goal. Count is now up to 7. can women be included in there to/ if so then 12.


Any way, my point is that if you require those things in your church, you may miss oportunities to meet great people and witness to other teeds who only come because their friends do.

P.S. What is your user name? I can never figure it out.

[Kirke]

Your definition of God-honoring doctrine may differ from Paul's, and his definition is the one I observe. What do you call good doctrine?