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Post by heyyou on Sept 9, 2006 7:39:34 GMT -5
I'd consider this a very good topic for discussion, so....
My incredible English teacher went on a two day rant in class about our "Feel good, self praising society," describing an incident he'd recently had with an elementary teacher. The teacher had starred and hung up a student's paper about a meal. The student was supposed to realistically color some foods and label them, and he had colored a hotdog green and labeled it "ho dog" She had told him he was correct so as not to crush his self esteem.
My teacher then proceeded to describe high school students who had failed or done wrong saying to their teachers "Oh, it's okay, my teachers always pass me anyway, and this isn't wrong, it's just my way of spelling and my style of grammar."
Lovely, isn't it? Everybody is so worried about what saying "no" to a child would do, or making him stay and get help, or failing him so that he can be in the level of education that suits his learning capacity and skills that the word "wrong" is rapidly losing definition. A feel-good society. If they tell you "you can do anything," that you are "wonderful and special," then come your 18th year and graduation, you can go do anything, right? You can use your uniqueness as you were meant to? Right? So where along the way does one acquire the tools to do anything? Where does one lean to put to use their special abilities?
Another point of my teahcer's rant was best summed up by his quote "Today's society is raising children without souls." True, no? Soul, what is soul? Where do you find it and how do you give it to a person? My fist answer is Faith. My second is the Arts, of any type, or sports. A hobby. Something a person can be passionate about. I know not about other places of education, but at my high school, I can name at least 30 people off the top of my head that have no hobby, point of interest, loved activity, (other than smoking or drinking, though I don't qualify that.) Basically, kids without a passion. And these are the kids I can actually name. There are a good many more whose names I know not.
I could rant on this (and much better than I have, I hope) for a very long time, but my time is currently restricted. Thus, I ask of you, is society killing it's future? Murdering Minds and creativity and passion? What else? How does society accomplish this? Better yet, how could this mass murder be resolved?
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Post by Kirke on Sept 9, 2006 14:38:48 GMT -5
I'm responsible for me. Society is a false entity created to assume the credit and blame of individuals.
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Sept 9, 2006 20:05:44 GMT -5
Society by definition is the interaction of individuals. Most of those individuals don't think like you, James. Most of them are all too eager to be the victim. To pass the blame to someone (anyone!) else. Therefore they blame the society that they themselves have created.
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Post by Kirke on Sept 10, 2006 15:29:19 GMT -5
"I could rant on this (and much better than I have, I hope) for a very long time, but my time is currently restricted. Thus, I ask of you, is the interactions of individuals killing it's future? Murdering Minds and creativity and passion? What else? How does the interactions of individuals accomplish this? Better yet, how could this mass murder be resolved?"
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Post by heyyou on Sept 10, 2006 16:27:27 GMT -5
Alrighty then, I'll stop with the larger generalizations and try not to use silly words like "society." Good point though...society being "a false entity to assume the credit and blame of individuals"...I like that. But I can think of no better word.
My question then, is of the murder of minds. Do you disagree that morals and soul and passion are lacking among many youth and adults, in this age? Do you disagree that more people today are numb and mechanic and selfish? Now I know, we did not live in the past, we know not how "society" was before our time, not as well as a person who was there, but of the information we have, of the history our nation requires us to learn, do you not agree that more people are living without passion?
And if you do agree, I then suppose that many children are coming out of the womb, or going into school each day, choosing not to learn or live? Choosing to be passionless and lack morals? Else who is to blame? Surely not many of the individuals breathing in this age? Surely not the media or any other portion of the population that could be defined "society"?
(I'm sorry if that was offensive...rare frame of mind today.)
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Sept 11, 2006 14:25:07 GMT -5
Y'know...now that I think of it...this needs to go in "Seriousness." So I'm moving it.
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Post by Kirke on Sept 11, 2006 21:35:25 GMT -5
I agree that men are evil, and that as time passes, they will continue to more and more call evil good and good evil, and those that profess Christ will more and more wear a form of godliness yet deny the power thereof...the Bible says as much.
Is there more you would persuade me/us to agree with?
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Post by heyyou on Sept 12, 2006 21:07:21 GMT -5
Guess not.
Umm, where are there passages on that? I love the bible and haven't read enough of it...Much as I want to continue reading it cover to cover, a few selected, sugested passages would be appreciated. And as this particular topic is particularily interesting to me right now...any suggestions? Please?
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Post by steel_lily on Sept 13, 2006 12:18:07 GMT -5
Okay....no more passiveness.
I've been off for a long time, and it's time to jump back into the proverbial fray. And I cannot stand by in such a "debate" and not point out several things.
One is that, yes, the word "society" is a construct of the mind. It is, however, a necessary construct. People interact. It is right that we should do so, for without one another our lives would have to be lived solely for ourselves and that is no good. Society, on the whole, is the governing tide of people. Individuals cannot be seen save by those immidiately around them, and no one individual by themself has a governing effect. Society, though a construct, is a reality and one that we must live with or isolate ourselves from. To live is to make a difference. To isolate is to hide in a cowardly hermitage.
(But I'm not opinionated)
It is true that world grows darker. But shall we stand by, recognizing the problems, and do nothing? Friends, we are the warriors of light in our world should we but choose to fight. Our society may be doomed to fall to evil, but why sit back and watch it happen, content with our own salvation? Do you not want to save as many as you can from mindless destruction? Then my answer, too, is passion. A purpose. The listlessness stems from something deeper even than the trend of not truly teaching. It comes from the society of self-service. Only by serving ourselves can we find true purposelessness. And thus they all have this void.
Do you not see?
It is murder. Massive massive murder. Of the mind, yes. But more importantly, of the soul. People are now taught to spend their entire lives trying to fill the aching, yawning void in their souls, but it all comes to naught because they fill it with themselves. They fill it with every hedonistic thing that could possibly come to mind; food, sex, drugs, clothing, "stuff", blood... But it all means nothing. Nothing! Why? Because that void was given to us for a purpose. It drives us, restless, to the feet of our Creator. Only there can we find fulfillment of the restless ache for something more, and even then one must continue to serve, to find purpose. One can find him and give onesself to him, but then one still has to serve, to obey, to move in the world and do his work.
Void. It's all about the void. And mindless feel-good-ishness is just one more way of trying to fill it.
And you sit by and say "c'est la vie, God said that the world would go to hell in a handbasket so I guess I might as well just let it" ? Bravo.
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Sept 14, 2006 19:43:30 GMT -5
Murder indeed. Here's most of the paper I just wrote for my sociology class:
Popular culture promotes the “Barbie” image as perfection. If those who are a part of popular culture do not conform, society looks down upon them. Barbies themselves change with the popular image of beauty, conforming to each generation’s version of perfection since their advent. Each successive version of perfection is more difficult to conform to than the last, putting more and more pressure on each successive generation.
Media also has had a considerable influence on consecutive generations—the current generation in particular. While Hollywood portrayals of successful men and women do give an ideal for the average person to aim for, the ideals presented are often unattainable. The successful male, should he carefully follow the stereotype portrayed in films and various other arenas, will have wealth and popularity (preferably through a series of highly publicized—possibly even illegal—events), be able to accomplish great feats of derring-do on a regular basis, and have various and sundry women fawning over him. The successful female, according to the entertainment industry, has pursued her passions to the extent that she now has a remarkably financially stable (and, of course, successful) career doing what she loves, has an adoring, handsome husband and several bright and beautiful children to come home to once she reluctantly leaves her beloved nine-to-five office job, and—on top of it all!—is beautiful and will remain so until she reaches the age of eighty. These are, however, simply ideals that the average person (or the below-average person, or even the above-average person in some cases), cannot ever hope to emulate. In addition, if a person tries to emulate the ideals given, there can be no result other than a sense of failure, which contributes to depression. It could be argued that the standard of perfection presented in all avenues of media is the root cause of most of the depression in America today. By promoting an ideal that no one can reach, those in control of media outlets are causing people to feel as if they have somehow failed, thus leading to their depression.
The pressures popular culture puts on real average people to conform to the ideal average person are unreasonable. This should be intrinsically obvious, yet none of the people responsible for the images portrayed through popular entertainment mediums do not seem to realize it. Instead, they continually flood the minds of people with implausible ideas of what they “have” to be in order to be accepted by their peers.
In addition to the messages of requisite perfection, there is another message that permeates our culture through the entertainment mediums, a corollary of the idea that perfect is the new average. It is the message that perfection is easy. The people portrayed in entertainment media are perfect, without any appearance of having to have work hard to become so. Though this message has been slowly supplanted of late, it still exists, and it is only exacerbated by the relentless messages of tolerance and affirmation that permeate the current culture. These messages maintain that a person must never tell any other person that what that person is doing is wrong. Rather, say the messages, people need to be given only positive feedback regarding their efforts, lest their precious self-esteem be injured.
These messages, combined with the messages of “average perfection,” only serve to result in damage to the self-esteem that they say must be built. When a person who has been given only positive feedback discovers from another source—or on their own—that what they have been doing is indeed wrong, the disappointment will be greater than it would have been if they had been corrected at the beginning. Such disappointment will only add to the depressed state of the general populous.
People are being told that they must conform to perfection, but no one is able to do so. Furthermore, they are being told that perfection is easy to attain, though it is nearly impossible. Such is the conflict in what people are being told and what they are finding for themselves. Perhaps one day “pop” culture will be overthrown by its own contradictions.
I can only hope.
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Post by steel_lily on Sept 15, 2006 5:17:01 GMT -5
I doubt it. Someone has to point out the contradictions first, and then they have to procure a feasible way of rearranging society and scrubbing the accumulative grime off our integral ideals.
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Sept 16, 2006 13:35:22 GMT -5
A girl can dream, can't she?
But your points are recieved.
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Post by Kirke on Sept 17, 2006 7:21:18 GMT -5
"Do you not want to save as many as you can from mindless destruction?"
No.
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Post by heyyou on Sept 17, 2006 8:15:23 GMT -5
Agreement with Alameth and Steel Lily. Questions for Superman, as so many of his answers make me curious. You don't want to save as many as you can from destruction of the mind? Why not? I have only guesses as to why one would not want to, and most of my guesses would be labels of character, which I don't want to falsely make. So...Why?
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Post by Kirke on Sept 19, 2006 10:32:55 GMT -5
"You don't want to save as many as you can from destruction of the mind? Why not?"
For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
How do you propose that we save other people?
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Post by steel_lily on Sept 19, 2006 11:59:04 GMT -5
I do not propose that we save others in the sense of enternity. No mortal can save another from the fires of hell. But as it stands, we can help to bring them closer to God. Also, I do not presume that we do this through our own power. It is not through my power that I claim to have done any of the things they keep telling me were good for other people. Not through our power, but through our choice. We can choose to help, choose to ask God for strength and step into the battle. Or, like Mr. Nonchurchgoer, we can choose to hide.
**Yes, that was a personal jibe. I find your choices to hide from the world and complain about it, instead of trying to change it for the better (if even only one life at a time), cowardly. That has nothing to do with the debate, just a personal opinion.**
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Sept 20, 2006 14:25:37 GMT -5
If it's personal, do it elsewhere. Really. I'm not saying that because you're my clone and he's my boyfriend and I'll go into denial or something. I'd say the same thing if it was anyone else. Really, I would.
Even loving homeschooling as I do, there are some things which I regret. My life was ideal. I expected the ideal to always happen to me, and I thought other people's lives were ideal too.
Wrong. Very, very wrong. I now see. I don't like what I see, but at least I see it. And there are people in unideal lives who depend on me. For what, I'm not precisely sure. Their reasons are even farther beyond me. But still they persist. So I do what little I can.
Yeah. That was pretty off-topic, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
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Post by Middle Earth Mouse on Sept 23, 2006 12:14:14 GMT -5
"You don't want to save as many as you can from destruction of the mind? Why not?" For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. How do you propose that we save other people? Information. that's my proposition: starwars/wheel of time/many good authors are correct, information is worth nearly, nearly, any cost. it has the ability to solve most of the problems of any logical person save a fanatic. there are things that informaion can not solve, those are prefernences, like in music, but in most other problems info. can solve it. pre-marital-sex: any person who looks at the statistics should at choose abstinence. the reason most don't is that they have a small short term view on life/don't care. they are still wrong, but again it is preferences: do you want to live a short/imparired life? yes? go ahead. no? then then Don't do it!!!!!!!inform people so that they can make their choice. if they have no information, no choice. "...if we are running into death's arms then let us atleast admit it!" ~Memory, Sorrow and Thorn book 2: The Stone of Farewell
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Post by heyyou on Sept 23, 2006 17:56:34 GMT -5
I agree with the mousy one. Good point. Along those same lines, people often need information to become faithful. I almost find it disappointing, except I have no grounds to feel this way, that one with so much biblical knowledge to offer seems to not care about helping others "be saved," and by that I mean, helping others to learn of faith and watch it. James, you seem to know the bible so well, and instead of arguing your interpretation of it, you could inform others of his holy words. So few know. To have a good influence on a person, and make it faithfully, is helping. Is trying to better society. In the end it's up to that person, or in some views, was already up to Him, whether or not that person is ever faithful. Is saved. Isn't that His way? I don't believe that we were meant to only be faithful ourselves and make it known. I believe people were emant as servants to try to provide for others the information that could help a person to want him and believe. I dunno, sorry..ranting. I'm sorry if I was offensive, I really am. And if you do try to help others in faith, good for you.
I'll be quiet now.
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Post by Kirke on Sept 24, 2006 7:22:57 GMT -5
Hey, I do have an argument for "my" interpretation of the Bible.
Premise 1: I am holding the Bible in my hand. Premise 2: It's in English. Premise 3: The original Bible was in Hebrew and Koine Greek.
Conclusion: My Bible is an interpretation of the Hebrew and Koine Greek into English.
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Post by Alameth of the Iron Fist on Sept 24, 2006 8:13:28 GMT -5
Enlighten me as to why that was necessary?
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Post by heyyou on Sept 24, 2006 9:32:54 GMT -5
*holds up hands* I'm sorry, I'm not trying to pick a fight on here.
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Post by steel_lily on Sept 24, 2006 17:01:14 GMT -5
<smiles deviously> I am!
That's not what she meant and you know it. The last verses in Matthew clearly dictate that we are to spread our faith. (Wait....why bother spreading faith to someone already decided on?.....pardon the caustic sarcasm.)
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Post by Kirke on Sept 24, 2006 20:05:14 GMT -5
It's not really necessary, darling. I am pointing out the truth relating the statement that I interpret the Bible.
Are you interpreting this post, gentle readers? If your friend comes in and sees you observing text, does he ask you "Hey, Cecily/Sammi/Nate/fill in your name, what are you interpreting?"
If I am looking at words containing somebody's words relating to modern events, do you ask me if I'm interpreting the newspaper?
If I am observing a leather bound book that states "Holy King James Bible" on the front, do you ask me which passage I'm interpreting? I would understand you asking me that if it said "Stephen's 1550 Koine Greek/Young's Literal Translation Interlinear Bible".
The Bible was written in Koine Greek; that is, layman's Greek. Layman's terminology, easily understood. The Bible is now interpreted from Koine Greek and simple Hebrew into our native tongue, English.
Why would I interpret from my native tongue into my native tongue?
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Post by steel_lily on Sept 24, 2006 22:56:17 GMT -5
She means the way that you take that language and apply it to your lifestyle and your heart. Your heart does not speak English, and neither do your actions. That is the necessary interpretation.
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Post by Middle Earth Mouse on Sept 25, 2006 12:25:37 GMT -5
well, that and the fact that it's in writing and not direct thought transmitions, <caugh> so in a way, you do need to translate it, ya.
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Post by Kirke on Sept 25, 2006 13:10:23 GMT -5
And how will you decide which of your interpretations or translations is right, or if yours or mine are right if they disagree?
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Post by heyyou on Sept 25, 2006 21:25:11 GMT -5
*laughs bitterly* I'm trying not to be rude as i say this.
Refer to "And so it begins...Maybe..." there is a very good example of dfferent people having interpreted the bible in different ways. (If you'd like to find a word better fitting than interpret, go for it.) How do I know I'm right? Faith. How do I show you? Debate as best as I can in every way I know how to. How do you know you're right? Faith. How do you show that to me? Debate me and it prove it as best you can.
Except that thread has died out, my thoughts have not been altered, and I care not to argue that any further and cause anyone else more pain. Or revive any conflict. So.
There's my example.
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Post by Kirke on Sept 26, 2006 10:40:20 GMT -5
A Mormon has faith that what he believes is right and debates strongly for it.
So does a Jehovah's Witness.
So how are you (or what you say I am) better than they are? What sets us apart? You are all convicted, concerned, and passionate individuals.
Why should I believe you over them, fundamentally, if all you can offer me is exactly what they offer?
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Post by Middle Earth Mouse on Sept 26, 2006 12:58:05 GMT -5
Because Superman, as you know perhaps better than I, the fundamentals of our faith have more reliable historical background than Mormonism, those cities that the book of mormon talks about, the Smithsonian says that there is no proof. when asked the same thing about Christianity, there are multipul (spell?) proofs! [size-1]<I could go on like this for about an hour, but it would bore those of you who know, which I assume is most of you, so I'll stop with that>[/size] Jehovah's witnesses? a knowledgeable christian can easily show them that "you can't convince me that your religeon is any more accurate than mine," and they will leave with questions about their own faith. *how are we different than them? better debates/arguments, how are different "sects" of christianity different than them? we are arguing from the same general perspective as you are, so if you manage to find a point which we absolutely can not counter, we have no choice but to aggree with you. they are going by different doctrins/"holy" books and we have the option of arguing aginst them(the books), or just comming out and, instead of showing that our religeon is 'better', totaly discrediting their religeion from the ground up, depending on wether they are the kind of person who, when this happens to him, will ground himself even more deeply into his faith, or, will, when confronted with the truth of the false-hood of his religeion, either join yours, or at least look for a different one which is even easier to blow out of the water. however, ya, you know where I'm going.
*...ya, I kinda' forgot where I was going to....well, I did make my point somewhaere in there, it's the underlined part
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